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| North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) | |
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Dear Leader Divine Administrator
Posts : 626 Join date : 2008-03-30
| Subject: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:17 pm | |
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Last edited by Dear Leader on Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:21 pm; edited 4 times in total | |
| | | Dear Leader Divine Administrator
Posts : 626 Join date : 2008-03-30
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:19 pm | |
| Part 2 ( continued from part 1 above ) Zaruka I will add this. Below are some of my favorite photos taken in North Korea. it is hard to pick a favorite if you have so much but these were interesting:
Traffic girls – out of the over 1000 photos of traffic girls these are my favorites: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/6172236534/in/set-72157627726855210 * http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4924931325/in/set-72157608054087019/
Transportation - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4965510092/ Wood-gas vehicle http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4964928081/ Travel by truck http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4965262736/ Railway yard in Kowon http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4918803370/ Ox cart on the farm http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/6181875200/ Bicycle in Chongjin Wonsan http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4939808613/in/set-72157626422428147 a guide - symbolic of North Korea I think
Workers - http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/2945430370/in/set-72157626422428147 workers in Pyongyang http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/3952712567/in/set-72157626422428147 Drying corn near Sariwon http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/3947276358/in/set-72157622313414387 Agriculture - guarding the corn fields http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4907780499/ A manual laborer building a wall - many of the women dress well for even these tasks.
Proof that kids will be kids http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4272364862/in/set-72157626422428147/ This was taken at the mass games. The kids will cut up if you go before the performance.
{ Fibblesteaks } Excellent group of pics.
How did you take the one of the kids playing with each other at the mass games? I hear there are very tight restrictions on how long of lens you can bring with you. I doubt I'll ever get to go to North Korea, but I do a lot of my shooting with my trusty 75-300mm lens, which I hear I would not to bring into the country.
EDIT: Never mind.... you took that one at only 70.2mm. Given the size of the stadium I figured you were much further away.
{ xdig2000 } Just watermark your pictures.
Zaruka I have done that with some. I have hidden some as well. I should have a good watermark strategy.
{ xdig2000 } Just make the watermark big and a bit transparent maybe at 10%. If you want to know who's using your images drag & drop an image in google image search: http://www.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi
Zaruka I have used tineye.com to track some photos. Some bloggers grab them and if they use my name that is fine - to a point. Some Asian bloggers rip them. I will give that a try. Thanks Ray
{ Otoao } Thank you so much for doing this, just made my account so I could ask you a few questions:
Have you ever talked to any of your guides about Joe Dresnok, last American defector in DPRK (Crossing The Line) ? If so, what have they said? Have you seen him or have the guides mentioned him since you are an American?
What do you think of Kim Jong-Eun? Do you think he'll be like his father considering that he studied abroad in Switzerland (IIRC)?
Also, what was your biggest misconception, if any, about the country and its people after your first visit, and how did it change during all the other subsequent visits?
Once again thank you so much! And please take a lot of pictures during 2012!!
Zaruka Each year I check to see how Joe is doing. I check in with Nick Bonner who knows him and see how he is doing. We cannot meet him as that is his request. His son married his Korean girl friend, another interesting thing. Joe was alive but his health was failing. The guides do not see him but Nick does.
Kim Jong-un is now seen all over. Last year we were trying to find anything, now he is on the news every evening WITH his father. He does not do anything singularly really. We are seeing more of him.
His future may be interesting. Kim Il-sung was worshiped. Kim Jong-il has somewhat less power but he is the son of the Great Leader so he is revered by heritage. The third generation, well he is revered as a descendant and heir apparent but we will have to see. He will not have the same level of power. There are three players - the Kim family, the military and the WPK "the party." How this moves forward is a problem. Geriatric military members, a strident party and the family. I think Kim Jong-il's sister Kim Kyong Hui. I have been to her businesses and restaurants. Again you have to remember this is a family organization. She is a real power there behind the scenes. It will be the family taking charge. Kim jong-un is the person trotted out for parades. We will see if he has a power base. Think monarchy - an Asian monarchy.
Well, i think there are many who have a better grasp on that. I just see things from below and generally do not comment on leadership. We do not know much really. I almost got to see Kim Jong-un on September 9 but they hid us away during his appearance. I was not happy.
Here he is on the tv looking at things: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/6247557469/
I have newspapers with him and his father.
Misconceptions. Wow. I read everything I could find before going and you have to understand I had read so much in college. When I got there I had to get oriented. I knew what to expect in the USSR and much of that was verified. Nothing in North Korea was. One visit did not do it for me. I was impressed how people treated Americans. They really did try very hard to please us but you could see how difficult things were. It just was not as bad as I had thought. As I went back again and again I found out what people were talking about in terms of harsh living conditions. I had to think about what I would tell people so I would not seem crazy. I know others say that the press lies about North Korea but it is more like only half the story. Human rights - a disaster to be sure but I know South Korea was also a harsh dictatorship for decades. What is Korean? What is attributable to the regime? What is it that the populous desires? These are hard questions. I know they want order with a capital O. I tend to think that some of the oppression is brought on from below. Do they tell on their neighbors for fear or do they want to uphold the public order? Who can do polling in a place like this? It was really not until this year that I finally saw the real hard side of the society. You got glimpses in the past, this year it was there in the smaller towns. In Pyongyang you might think things were normal. It depends on where you go. This is Korea so much of the place can defy reason. Understand it from their perspective. Well I think I have it but I cannot say it is a desirable state to live in.
I will keep shooting in the future. 2012 will be the banner year.
{ Otoao } Thank you for the answers!
Going back to the American defectors; has Nick ever mentioned how Joe feels being the last American in the DPRK? If so, even though his relationship with Charles Robert Jenkins wasn't a great one, does he miss having him in the DPRK, maybe not as a friend but as a fellow American with whom he could relate?
Also, Have you read Jenkins' memoirs: "The Reluctant Communist: My Desertion, Court-Martial, and Forty-Year Imprisonment in North Korea"? If so, what do you think of it?
Zaruka I have not read Jenkins' memoir and I should. It sounds like good Christmas reading. Joe did not get along with Jenkins as he indicates in the documentary. Nick did not mention that.
{ wishinghand } I'm a type 1 diabetic. I need vials of insulin, a little digital device that tests drops of my blood with a lancet and either syringes or another digital device that holds reservoirs of insulin and slowly injects it into me over the course of a day. I cannot go without this medication and equipment. Would they let me bring this into North Korea if I wanted to book a tour?
Zaruka You can take anything in of a medical nature. They really exclude cell phones, radios etc. Food or medicine is allowed in any quantity so if I were you I would bring about one month's worth for a week, just in case. Could you get insulin at the Friendship Hospital? Yes. I would just bring in what you can. Also, there is really not much sugar in the society at all. When you go in you go without sugar (you could buy some) salt and oil. A great diet.
{ mmmdontchaknow } Two questions: I met a Russian girl that lived in Pyongyang. She said the craziest thing she saw was a car that was retrofitted to run off wood. I`m not even sure if that is possible. Any truth to this?
Also, I have heard rumours that North Korea has more attractive women (spoils of war) than South Korea. True?
Zaruka Cars retrofitted to run on wood. Wood gas was popular in the UK during WWII. Indeed there are wood gas vehicles in North Korea. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4965510092/ * http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4988684882/
We see them all the time in the north of the country, the east coast and some in Nampo. They are not seen in Pyongyang. Most tourists would not see them. Cars, I have not seen a car fitted with wood gas. It is generally trucks. I suppose you could. If you look up wood-gas on the web you can see how that works.
There is a phrase that I think you are misinterpreting. In the North the women are beautiful and in the south the men are handsome. That saying goes back long before the war and has nothing to do with the war. I think the casual observer would say that is true because of all the great looking women you see in Pyongyang. I submit they have never been to Chongjin. People look different in different parts of the country but I think it is a generalization in both the north and the south. In the states they say the girls are more beautiful in California (Katy Perry notwithstanding) but that phrase goes back long before Katy and the Beach Boys. It is one of those kinds of sayings.
{ Wreckedified } Are you planning on writing a book anytime soon?
Zaruka Yes. There are two approaches under consideration. One of comparative socialist states since I have been to most of them in the old days or one on North Korea.
I have been in discussions on the DPRK book but I have to clear it with the tour agency. If I do that I cannot go back as the Koreans will not let you back in if you publish. It is being written but I am holding because I want to go again. You cannot stay current and get a behind the scenes look if you do not go. I have seen area experts go in for the first time and have no idea of the meaning of the sites or what they are looking at. Book reading goes just so far. Think of it as studying the middle ages. You cannot go there. So many area experts cannot go there and if you check to see if your North Korean expert has set foot in the country you might be disappointed. I prefer the ones that at least admit they have never been there. I have degrees in Soviet history and one in East Asian political science. I have a masters studying human rights and international law in WWI. I read Kim Il-sung in college and took Korean history as well as many courses in China under Mao. I went to China in the old days and wanted so much to get into North Korea. That was the holy grail as no one goes there. One trip and I knew I had seen nothing. The next year I was offered a special trip into the countryside during harvest and it was fantastic. For an American it was rare to go twice. Now I just go annually to view changes and get deeper into viewing and understanding the country. New questions are always coming up and answered questions need to be verified. You also want to see the country in different seasons and in varying weather. We had a typhoon come ashore and the place is far different under that kind of stress. A five day propaganda tour just does not cut it if you want to see behind. There are layers of this society, many they do not want to show you. You might think ill of them, the society or the leadership. It is cultural and they would do that if they were a capitalist society. You do sense insecurity in many about their situation. They try so hard to portray their society as a good one but it rings hollow so often.
I will write over the winter but I still want to go back in the centennial year of 2012.
{ dougiebgood } I've wanted to visit North Korea, kind of to just say I did it, but one thing that's stopped me is that I wouldn't want to give my money to that regime in any way. I understand that North Koreans themselves can be great people, but to monetarily support a regime that enslaves children in prison camps is just something I couldn't bring myself to do.
I understand you're taking more of a journalistic approach to your trips, but has the thought ever crossed your mind about the kind of government you're giving your money to?
Zaruka I understand this. I have had long discussions with the tour operators of two companies about the issue. They are the primary conduits for western currencies going to the regime via tourism. What percent goes to the regime? What percent goes to support the families of the Korean tour company? Do you have an effect opening up North Korea when you go?
I think we are opening up the country. There is no going back for the regime when outsiders come in and they are seen by the locals as being normal and not the monsters they are portrayed to be. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/6197397279/
If we show children that Americans are not the bastards the regime portrays them to be, what is that worth? What are we doing to end that kind of thinking?
Children in prison camps? Yes, that is true. Confucian thinking is what causes that. Three generations of people are rounded up. They believe in mass guilt. The individual is not recognized as having free will in the sense we know it. To root out crime or political malcontents then everyone goes to prison. A closer look at this shows that this does not happen at the first sign of a problem. There are towns where people are moved to if they lose privileges through transactions. There is a hierarchy of location - as well as the prisons such as Yodok. Consider Chinese prisons or the practices in other undeveloped holes of the world. Is North Korea different from Malawi, Iran, or other awful places? Why North Korea? Is it because of communism? What about horrible tribal practices?
Long ago I decided to go and it did not matter the price of admission and the reason was so I could educate people on the places they would not go. People said the same thing about the USSR - oh the money goes to the regime, there are gulags etc. Yes, but unless you go what do you really know about the place? I saw one gulag up close in Ulan Uda in 1985. Syria is the same way. I went there and some of the money goes to the Assad regime. I want to observe. What is the causal link between you going and people in prison? I think the purchaser of a pair of high-end tennis shoes does more for child labor than a tourist does for supporting prisons in North Korea. You can look at shopping at WalMart the same way. How much of that goes to the Chinese Communist Party supporting oppression in Tibet? This is a large world and going or not going is not going to make a huge difference. If we thought like that we would protest stamp collectors who buy North Korean postage stamps as supporters of the Kim regime.
If you go, send a donation to a charity sending food into North Korea or one helping refugees from the North. Better yet, make some friends in the North and give them western currency. Help them from the inside. You will do more to end the regime than not going.
It is a moral choice and not an easy one. That is a very good point.
{ JPalmz } Really great pictures! I'm just curious, are you allowed to buy things in North Korea? (whether it'd be souvenirs, food, etc). Also, have you ever given anything to anybody? I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed, but some of those pictures are really depressing.. I'd want to give those people some money or something.
Zaruka Yes but we are not allowed to use North Korea Won if that is what you mean. We use Euros, Dollars, or RMB - the Chinese Yuan. The trick is to find something to buy. Looking for things of local manufacture is a trick. We buy soda, beer, snacks and souvenirs. We have gone to Kiosks and purchased a few things but the Kiosk has to have a foreign currency - funny they usually do. Many locals are carrying foreign currency. It is not illegal for North Koreans to have western currency.
I have given things to people. I will not say more but I do have friends there that I bring things to. I do give things to my guides and former guides also. That we can do but we are not permitted to give anything to people at random. It causes problems for them.
Some of the photos are depressing. I see some of the same things in China and of course India also has some depressing things. I have seen things not photographed that are worse.
What we have to do is figure out what is political and what is cultural. Is it political that prisoners are treated so cruel or is it cultural? Was alcoholism in the USSR from socialism? That was claimed. Well alcoholism today in Russia is awful and socialism is gone. In Korea this is really difficult because so much of what you see is Korean Confucianism run wild. What would a more open Korea look like? Probably like the South. My friends in the south say there are some very weird things that go on there too because of the way things are done in Korea. The place is Asia, it is poor and it was closed for 1000 years so much of what you see was going on 100 years before the Kim family took over.
The problem as I see it is that if the country would change it would be far better off. They tell us they cannot because they will lose their culture - that is the greatest fear. They say they will loose the freedom to be Korean. I know that sounds weird but they want to preserve village life, fishing, customs, the old Korean ways, dancing and their distance from the outside. They have a point and most of us standing there realize that but at what cost? Malnourished children? I am not sure it is worth it.
I do give them money directly and I mean some of the friends I have. How can I not do that? The society will change some day, it just scares me every time I hear someone want to nuke Pyongyang. Murdering a huge number of civilians in Korea will not solve anything.
{ menthol239 } You mention that you would like to live in China one day. Can you speak any other languages?
Zaruka I think my problem is that I try to learn wherever I go so it is knowledge of many languages but none fluently. One of the attractions of living there would be to be forced to learn. Chinese was taught in elementary school where I went to school and it is not that foreign to me. Spanish, some German and Italian, and I studied Turkish. Korean is my latest fad. I think language training is probably the best thing one can do. Spoken Chinese is what I am starting with but I find that while there it gets easier if you just pay attention. Listen and concentrate. I need months of living there but I notice I get better. I carry dictionaries and learning materials. Mango is what I use in the states but I am signing up for some intensive classes. Spanish is what I did in college for my undergrad and grad language requirement.
{ cancer1337 } do you speak korean at all?
Zaruka I learn all the time but no. I did not take Korean in college but I take it now and try while there. That said - they really do not like non-Asians who speak Korean. That is a sign you could be a spy. Do not raise suspicions while there - a good rule.
{ Epicman } http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/4907780499/ This woman is amazing. Absolutely gorgeous.
So much so that I am inclined to agree with the comment saying it was a staged work scene and she was meant to stand out for good photo ops.
Zaruka I wondered about that except.... I have been back. The others I did not photograph were not as attractive. The other woman in the sequence was still there a year later doing labor. She was just the most attractive. I think it was a labor project for everyone in this area. They worked at the rest stop. Other labor crews I have seen some of the women were dressed well. Koreans sometimes dress well even in the fields. If I see them a year or two later they still have the same clothes on.
{ digimer } I know this is fairly old now, but I wanted to ask in public in case it's a question of interest to others.
I had wanted to go last year, but couldn't afford the time off work. I had planned now to try and go later this year, but with the death of Kim Jong Il, I am not sure if it is wise.
So; 1. What are your feelings of travelling to DPRK now? Do you think there will be stability in the short/long term? So you plan to go back this year and have your plans changed at all?
2. I'm vegetarian, and I know Asian culture in general is relatively unfamiliar with the concept. In Japan, I had a somewhat hard time of it, and I had freedom to choose where and what I ate. Have you been with vegetarian visitors? Do you know how well they (or vegetarians in general) get by while visiting? Should I abandon hope and just accept that being vegetarian isn't feasible while visiting?
Thanks again. If you ever find yourself in Toronto, Canada, let me know. I would love very much to talk at more length on DPRK. I know that so much I've learned over the years is based on propaganda and political spin... A chance to chat with a neutral observer would be wonderful.
Zaruka 1.There will be stability in the short term and possible longer, say 2 years. I am going back - I have to. There was a regime change. We have been watching for any signs of regime change everywhere. Now we have it so we have to gauge the effects of that change. I say it will be none for a while. 2013 I think will tell. 2.I have been with vegetarian visitors and it can be difficult. They are unfamiliar with it. If you state that to the waiter going in or when you sit down they will accommodate you. You just have to tell them. It is not a huge problem.
I am neutral depending on who is reading. I understand there are some hard feelings here - but I find the Korean war vets are curious and the ROK students just want to see it. I am not a great fan of the regime but I really like the countryside and the people. Yes, I do presentations and lectures. Many of those in the groups are Canadians.
{ digimer } Thank you for taking the time to answer. My thinking was that, if the regime survived the first few weeks, it would remain stable for 1~3 years. Come spring, I'll see about continuing my plans to visit.
As for neutrality; I plan to check my ideals at the door. Of course, I want very much for life to get easier in DPRK, but it's not my position to speak my mind. I just want to see what life is like in such a completely foreign society, relative to my experiences.
Safe travels.
Zaruka I think for the short term things will be the same but yes, lets see where the economic policies go in 2013. That is when I may go back for a longer tour because that is when the new leadership (collective) will be on their own.
{ didgameta } This might be inappropriate, but what is the average North Korean's sex life like? I've read somewhere that officially, the DPRK is accepting of homosexuality, but in reality is quite intolerant. I assume this is due to general Korean cultural norms. Is per-marital sex something that happens or discussed?
Zaruka Ok, well that is a great question and I was talking to someone about that today. North Korea is a real puritanical society but more pre-marital sex is happening according to what I read. Bruce Cumings discusses this in his book on North Korea and from what I know I agree. These Korean norms are back about 50 years so it is very reserved. Homosexuality is still a taboo and I wonder how it is handled and have no information on that. I think we need to find out more. It is not the place to party because the costs to the locals can be high at least with foreigners.
{ Drewcifur } I will be jealous of you forever, I wish I could go, even if they just forced me to see the propaganda parts. Korea is amazing in my eyes, and I want to too see the good and the bad!!!!
Zaruka It is hard to see the bad and what I mean is that they do not want to show it directly but you see it indirectly. Going five days shows you very little. Take a long tour and you can get a sense of the place. The propaganda parts are seldom but on one tour it was constant. That does not happen much at all but as I said to one person, "Isn't that why we come here?" it can be fun. To see Korea you have to go to the Korean counties of China, North and South and some of the Korean communities around the world. It is fascinating.
LINK TO ORIGINAL REDDIT AMA: http://www.reddit.com/r/northkorea/comments/n8ysx/i_travel_to_north_korea_annually_ama/ | |
| | | Zaruka trafficgirl photographer
Posts : 45 Join date : 2009-08-29 Location : Illinois
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:47 pm | |
| All that content. If anyone has any further questions let me know. You can ask here. Lots of lively discussion there and I continue to answer questions daily. Some things I have had to clarify as some statements were made late at night.
Thanks for reading the rant and checking out the photos. | |
| | | Dear Leader Divine Administrator
Posts : 626 Join date : 2008-03-30
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:50 pm | |
| "Some things I have had to clarify as some statements were made late at night" LOL
I guess I would ask - since from birth it seems like the NK people are constantly fed propaganda about how evil and warmongering Americans are, what does the average citizen feel when they meet Americans in person? I'm sure they are polite to tourists, but I wonder how they really feel after a lifetime of anti-American slogans and teachings. Is it even possible to know this, given that tourist agendas are controlled and monitored, and with the language barrier? I do think it is good for them to see in person that maybe Americans aren't exactly who they have been taught they are.
| |
| | | Zaruka trafficgirl photographer
Posts : 45 Join date : 2009-08-29 Location : Illinois
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:59 am | |
| I do think it is good for them to see in person that maybe Americans aren't exactly who they have been taught they are. IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII Ever since I sat through a propaganda session in the USSR in 1982 where a babushka would hit you with a stick if you so much as moved I have wondered how much effect the propaganda has on a population. I have been all over the east bloc and seen some of the propaganda fed to the people. When an American would arrive it was party time! I was treated so well that it was embarrassing. I would stay up late at night taking politics. What you found in the Soviet Bloc was that it really just narrowed perspectives but it never worked. The other problem was that the BBC and VOA were listened to by everyone. They were patriotic but skeptical. Remember - they were western enough. In the USSR they were also Russian so cynicism was rampant. A great space program but bad shoes. In Cuba I found everyone had a real grasp on reality. How do you live in a tropical nation that cannot feed itself? Hell the communist party members were saying that. The Cubans have a good understanding of their problems and want to deal with it. Move east. China in the old days of Deng xiaoping was interesting. There was a small bit of hatred of foreigners still around. That of course is gone now (well sort of). You could tell the Chinese were fascinated by the US as I had learned and they never really viewed the US as a great enemy. Knowledge of the outside began to blossom in the 1980s. More foreign magazines were making their way in but still you could tell knowledge was narrower. The DPRK lives in total isolation. The only knowledge sources are as controlled as if you were a tribesman in New Guinea. This is really different. But does it work? On my first tour I was getting into a 2 hour lecture by a very Stalinist lecturer. She was in her 20s slamming "American Imperialist Aggressors." It was vicious. We were 45 minutes into this hard hitting lecture, just the seven of us. With pointer in hand she was explaining the aggressions on the DMZ by the foreign aggressors when she stopped and said, "I think we shoot down American helicopters because the men are so handsome." We looked at each other and said, "Huh?" In an instant she turned into a blushing teenager who could not keep to the script. She knew who we were. She could not do it. It went on like that for the next hour. The lectures can be severe. Then after they can come to you and begin asking human questions about make-up, relationships, beauty, what we do for fun etc. Secretly, they do not hate us. I have never seen it. I saw some film once of someone attacking a cameraman but that is so atypical. When encountering people and telling them who we are they are even more friendly. That is not state policy - they used to shy away. That was the original state policy. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zaruka/6197397279/"It's fun to play capture the American Bastard!" I remember one woman grabbing me and holding my hand through the entire conversation. Even the guides were taken back. Propaganda will work to some degree. People are patriotic but they also know how far you have come to see their country and they are grateful. In this land where mass guilt is taught (you are guilty because you are an American) I just do not think it works. I watch the effectiveness of propaganda here but there I think people are a bit more sophisticated. Remember - they are Korean, they love that country and the leadership that has taken them to where they are. They will defend it from the outside. Still I think there is a compassionate side to Koreans and I see that. I also know there is a hard side. When we were in all American groups we were treated like diplomats. It was kind of strange. We did get to hang with some higher ups. I miss that but still people treat us very well. How controlled are the tours? The answer is less than you think and more than I would like. I know why because I have see what they are trying to hide. This last tour was a real bucket of cold water. The society is in failure. If you take a bus from Pyongyang for the three to four hours depending on road conditions to Wonsan, how much do you see? The answer is plenty. If the road is under repair and you detour through a village you see what others do not - the rural areas are in decay. They want you to see Pyongyang - nice clean and under construction. They want you to see the DMZ, they want you to see the mountains but they omit the rural poverty, the work gangs etc. It is there but you have to go for more than the standard tour. Tours have failures. You arrive too early or too late and see something unexpected. A wood-gas vehicle being fixed next to the hotel, girls practicing military drills, a young teenage group digging ditches in a "voluntary" labor brigade, college students struggling to move dirt in a horrible rain storm with no rain gear. The dirt was literally flowing from the hill. Some things can be seen if you are not asleep on the bus. People are human everywhere on this planet and I think when you encounter the DPRK it tends to change you. You can see the humanity beneath the nonsense. The language barrier is a bit of a problem but within every group there are a few that speak Korean. What do you do while there but learn Korean? It is not that hard. I will say that they really do not like non-Koreans who speak Korean. I did not expect that at all. They tend to think you are some kind of spy. Korean Americans they love and let them do about anything. That I found was fascinating. I guess I am not a member of the club. The translations are good. Sometimes it is nuanced but not that much. | |
| | | Dear Leader Divine Administrator
Posts : 626 Join date : 2008-03-30
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:49 am | |
| You give good answers, very descriptive and thorough.
You say that on your first tour you were sitting through a 2 hour lecture. So is it required that all visitors to NK need to sit through propaganda lectures? Even the Chinese tourists? Or just tourists from the Western bloc? | |
| | | Zaruka trafficgirl photographer
Posts : 45 Join date : 2009-08-29 Location : Illinois
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:16 am | |
| The North Koreans do not do that as much any more. A museum tour may have a video, say 20 minutes, but the more intensive study was done for Americans years ago. I understand the Korean Friendship Association (KFA) under Alejandro does this. With mixed tours they do not do this any more. The ideology of the DPRK is Korean and not for export. While they will explain it they are not trying to convert anyone as was the case of Marxism in the Socialist world. I must say that even in the old days the doctrinaire socialists the conversion efforts were not very convincing. The Koreans have a traditional view of reality. They would put you in a room and harang for an hour because that is they way they do it in Korea. Now they will show a video, something we can relate to more than a lecture that has no give and take. We do not see all wisdom as coming from the party or the leadership. We have a free exchange of ideas and they do not. Reality is set (by the party and leadership) and we can discuss how wonderful that is but not the basis of the reality. It is like being in a strict religious group. The reality is not questioned. Tourism is lightening up and the propaganda is getting lighter. I think we got it heavy because we were Americans and because the second tour Americans had a deeper interest. I am really glad I saw it harder a few years ago. I also think they were trying to impress the higher ups. The Museum of the Revolution is not shown to most tourists and it is a total propaganda fest. Getting to see that is important because the general tourist has the impression that Kim Jong-il is only seen with his father and that is not true. There is a cult of Kim Jong-il but you have to look for it. Son has the wisdom of the leader. The new son, Kim Jong-un, will have his own room in the museum and I am anxious to see it. I may request a visit this year and ask to see it. The tours are filled with ideological tidbits and you can let it go over your head or study it. I like to compare and contrast the messages to see changes over time (very little) and see is the message is nuanced for Americans vs Europeans (it isnt). If you go long enough you can tire of it. I think I tire of the "we cannot do this" nonsense when it is on the tour itinerary. I understand, it happens. Such is the nature of the DPRK. You have an itinerary then it is ripped up when you arrive and you figure out what you can do. This does lead to opportunities. The Hamhung Revolutionary Opera is pure propaganda. Tell O'Forest is about the Japanese occupation. It is allegedly written by Kim Jong-il and to see this live as the audience weeps for the characters really gives you insight into the North and how they view the world. The mass games, the opera, the museums, the monuments, and the tourist sites all are propaganda. You cannot go anywhere without the regime being present. On the most remote farm the regime is present in a mural, immortality column or in a home. It is so pervasive in everything that you cannot avoid it. Here is a home I entered on a cooperative farm The calendar is similar in most homes but on the right is a floral image. That is the flower Kimjongilia, another regime symbol. If you know the symbolism of the regime you see it everywhere. In a sense the entire tour is a massive propaganda tour. In this Mass Games photo you can see some of the symbolism. Upper left is the Kimjongilia flower above the stadium. Left side floral is again Kimjongilia with the Kimilsungia flower. The mountain you see above the human pixels is Mt. Paektu, the holy mountain of Korea. Kim Jong-il was born near this mountain and you see it as a symbol. Above the mountain (not illuminated in this photo) is the torch of the Juche idea. Juche is the ideology of North Korea. Plenty of propaganda around for sure. | |
| | | Todd Margaret party member first poster
Posts : 1 Join date : 2012-02-18
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:47 am | |
| Hi Zaruka,
Great thread! I just read the whole thing and if you're still willing to take questions I have two that haven't been asked yet.
I was wondering if you had any insight on how the regime propagandizes the country's rural poor. I imagine many of the country's poorest do not have televisions, but what about radio and printed material? Are those methods typically used in rural areas? Would the rural poor generally have access to North Korean news like Rodong or KCNA?
Also, have you ever talked to any North Koreans about September 11th? The English KCNA website published a brief article shortly after September 11th 2001 condemning the attacks and terrorism generally. Do you think this opinion is shared by the people of North Korea and do you suppose the regime takes the same position in its Korean language propaganda?
Thanks! | |
| | | Zaruka trafficgirl photographer
Posts : 45 Join date : 2009-08-29 Location : Illinois
| Subject: Re: North Korea Tourist AMA (Ask Me Anything) Wed May 22, 2013 9:29 am | |
| Sorry I did not get to this. I am heading back in three weeks to the rural northeast of the country and I will report. I was wondering if you had any insight on how the regime propagandizes the country's rural poor. I imagine many of the country's poorest do not have televisions, but what about radio and printed material? Are those methods typically used in rural areas? Would the rural poor generally have access to North Korean news like Rodong or KCNA?
The rural areas depend on the communal speaker at the village center. This was true in China and rural Japan in the old days. The propaganda van (See below) is an essential part of disseminating news and information as well. The speaker will run in some areas from 5am continuously until 11pm. News from newspapers and local village news, in the form of naming criminals, is constant. Remember something - they think this is they way Korea should be. They have no other points of reference. Television is widespread as many sets were given as gifts from the regime or as rewards for work. There are two stations in Pyongyang and one in the other cities. Rural areas have a weak signal but it is all the same. Videos lauding the Kim family, the military and life in the countryside. News shows industrial progress, dams or happy people working. I must say I love the farm interviews and spots on goat production or fish farming. It can be personal but in all cases one must thank the leadership as you would the king. There is the constant bombardment or mural propaganda and the schools are all teaching about the great achievements of the Kim family. The first time I went I was asked about 9/11 and they do know about the terrorist attacks. They think terrorism in general is really bad. Now, that said you have to understand that anything they do against Japan is retaliation for the cruelty of the occupation of Korea. They believe that Japan is guilty for unpardonable sins and any attack is justified. Also if they blow up something in South Korea they would think that is acceptable as the south is still occupied and they are fighting against those who collaborate. Do they take the same position domestically as they do on KCNA? Indeed that is why it is so stilted and ridiculous. They have some funny ideological rules and one is literal translation and another is domestic and foreign are essentially the same. That is why is is insane at times. You have to understand Korean culture, one of exaggeration and formal hyperbole. I have sat for hours being harangued about American Imperialist Aggressors with threats of nuclear attacks. Then you go to eat and enjoy a warmth and comradeship that you would see nowhere. I grew up with Koreans and you have to understand Korean culture. The rule with any socialist society was simple - understand that which is political from that which is cultural. Is the practice of condemning three generations in a crime political or cultural? Is the practice of dividing society into three classes and 57 sub-classes political or cultural? What do you see in the ROK about extreme loyalty to the regime or company and how does that apply in the DPRK? Political or cultural? Alcoholism was rampant in the USSR. The USSR went away and how is alcoholism in Russian today? Was rampant alcoholism in the USSR caused by socialism? With the DPRK this is so mixed up that it is not easy to understand. We see red flags, communism and the trappings of the Cold War so we see the society through those eyes. I think it is totally bankrupt. Rules: This is Korea, all other rules are thrown out. There are no experts on the DPRK. Anyone professing such is a liar. I have sat for long discussions with WPK members and they do not know what is going on. Most of the talking heads making a career out of the DPRK have never been there. Dismiss them. Andrei Lankov is reliable and experienced. Many of the books are padded with junk. Many of the observations are not based on an understanding or Korean culture. Some are outright anti-Asian. Some will always have a piece of truth but there is too much trash floating around. This is a closed society that we know very little about. After you go there the first time you understand how little you knew. As one person said, "You know nothing until you are there." I traveled the Soviet Unions from the south to the Arctic, from Minsk to Siberia. That society was knowable and accessible. The DPRK takes extensive study in country. You go, you listen, you look, you listen more. Understand their viewpoint. Listen to the lessons. Read their founding literature, something I studied in college. Most of what I knew was trash and I had to relearn and get rid of my preconceptions. If you begin with a clean slate it will become a bit easier. I read Brad Martin's book and it is filled with junk. Refugee literature has a place but it depends. ROK resident refugees tell a different story than those in China or those residing elsewhere. Why is that? Why would 50% want to return? Learn Korean culture and have respect for it. Understand that there were differences between north and south prior to 1945. Understand the Koryo dynasty then look for the strains of that experience in North Korea today. It is not black and white and indeed no society is. Ask more and I will answer if I can before I head back. Ray | |
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